- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.zip
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.zip
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Thank you System76.
There are SOOOOOO many ways to implement age verification checks. And this is one of the worst. What is wrong with people
An “I am an adult” checkbox in your OS that gets propagated out is probably the most privacy centric way to lock down kid accounts right?
It’s because the goal is surveillance
But who the fuck is actually introducing these bills? Which entity/organisation/individual/company are they getting the ideas from?
Palantir
The dark side
… and I’m grateful for that but maybe we can finally decouple from OEM for OSes? Maybe could JUST buy a computer and not be forced an OS on it?
Sure I admit it feels nice to unwrap a new device, turn it on, set up few options and use it. Yet, the alternative it to turn it on, plug a USB drive on it, turn it on, set up few options, wait for 15min tops for installation to proceed and use it.
It’s actually a ~15min difference but it could bring so many good practices.
You can buy computers without an operating system installed on it but most consumers barely understand what a computer is and would think that a computer without an operating system was broken. So there never was much of a market and then Microsoft came along and paid the OEMs to install Windows.
Quite a few website will let you untick the windows 11 licence if you want to go your own way.
Unfortunately the Linux market is so fragmented that your average user is overwhelmed. This is not helped by the Linux community who in a general rule are not particularly accommodating towards novices.
I like buying hardware, that I know is supported by an operating system. Although that doesn’t always have a good result either. I bought a small Linux netbook with an ARM chip, that never received a kernel update because of incompatible drivers.
being asshole towards less technically adept people about linux should become something that gets you seriously shamed and even ostracized if it continues. that kind of behavior hurts ALL of us by reducing popularity of linux and this reducing developer interest in supporting linux, which also means less drivers for critical components which in turn might mean your pc just cant utilize linux.
Personally, i have issue of internet getting randomly cut off due to too old drivers for my network adapter/chipset/not sure. The motherboard i use is one of the latest there is.
This issue has apparently persisted for years now, according to forum posts about it. So i’m directly suffering from linux not being popular enough.
-> Someone else would just return to windows because this is quite insuffreable even for me. But personally i’m happier with malfunctioning linux system than correctly working windows.
You can buy computers without an operating system installed on it
AFAIR that hasn’t been the case in most places for a while precisely because Microsoft made partnerships with OEMs to avoid that situation.
I believe new laws were added, e.g. in Europe, but I would be curious were this was the case. In fact I remember the opposite, namely that most computers one would buy always came with an OS, Windows for PC and MacOS for Apple computers. Even computers that one would buy in part that would be assembled for them from non OEM would also have the options to have an OS. In fact I’d be curious about example of fully assemble PCs, not just parts nor SBCs, that could be purchased without an OS before the law in the places where its the case now, would prove an OS-free option. Can you please share examples?
Also, assuming you do find such examples (thanks in advance) I’d then be curious what’s the market share, namely is it significant, e.g. 10% or is it basically anecdotal, e.g. 0.01% and thus just enough to say “it’s possible” yet has no actual impact.
This is not helped by the Linux community who in a general rule are not particularly accommodating towards novices.
Luckily this trend is shifting! More and more linux distros oriented towards users new to linux, and helpful communities.
Most people today think computers like toasters, they don’t mind what OS they use or how to setup it. They want it to be ready to use right after they get it to the home. Similar as toasters or microwave ovens, you don’t expect to have to do any setup work for them. I don’t think it’s a good way to start using the computer, but unfortunately most people are that kind of people. That’s why Linux will never be the mainstream OS, no matter how hard you try to convince people to install and use it.
Linux will never be the mainstream OS
The SteamDeck prove that wrong, it’s already mainstream.
Android has proven that wrong before.
But you see, you don’t need to install it yourself, it’s just a plug and play.
I don’t understand the argument. Linux already is mainstream since there are millions (number out of my ass, I don’t actually know) of devices people buy and “just” use Linux. Those clients are no tinkerers or developers, “just” gamers including I bet a significant proportion who are not even adults. My bet is when those people are asked “Are you using Linux?” they either don’t know, or don’t care, and yet when they finally realize they are actually using Linux daily they probably think “Wow, it’s not that complicated, it just works” and thus it will change mindsets at scale.
Im sorry if you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, I think it’s because I have very poor English skills. I tried to say that people don’t want to have computer, which they need to install operating system before they can use it. And because almost every computer has Windows or macOS when you buy it, why would they want to start installing anything other? Only people who are keen on computers are willing to do that. I use Linux BTW.
But then people would have to learn. That’s scawy 🥺
Learn about a tool that is basically in the middle of some of the most crucial interactions in their lives? From receiving an email to vote, to booking an appointment to get a passport, to working, to dating, to browsing an encyclopedia, to entertainment broadly, to creating music, to …?
I’ll stop there but yes, even though learning is scary I think if the safety net is clear enough (namely you just can’t mess up so badly your brand new computer won’t work) then it’s worth investing in.
You don’t need to convince me. I’m all for people having a basic understanding of the tools they use on a daily basis.
But my observation is that people seem predominantly opposed to the idea.That’s like saying that everyone should become an electrician. It’s just not a practical expectation.
No. But everyone should have a basic understanding how electricity works, so they’re not surprised that they better switch it off when working on the wiring and can at least make a guess of how it’ll behave once powered.
They don’t need to get into the dynamics of capacitors, diodes, transistors or other electronic components, but having heard of them certainly wouldn’t hurt.In my experience people who know a little about computers are more dangerous than the ones who know nothing.
I’ve had people come into the repair shop who’ve uninstalled programs they don’t recognise and then it turns out that the programs they don’t recognise was the graphics driver. A complete novice would just have not gone into the program list to begin with.
Do schools even teach basic computing anymore, when I was at school we got taught how to program and I feel like that’s not done anymore.
I was taught basic programming in school - by people who clearly had no clue. (it was clear to 11 year old me, and in hindsight I was far to kind in my evaluation of their knowledge) I was also taught on the then very modern apply IIgs - I wouldn’t be surprised if you have never heard of that, but all you need to know is nothing I was taught is relevant anyway - if you were taught on windows 7 a lot of what you learned has changed anyway.
Point is we need to teach people to teach themselves because things change.
Linux for personal use can be undependable. I have a use case where I don’t mind configuring stuff, but once setup I need that shit to mf work every time all the time and it not working results in direct loss and depending on when potentially substantial loss. I say this as an avid linux user.
Although in fairness Windows is not being particularly reliable in that regard as of late.
if you run into stability issues on Linux the problem is either your distro or you.
Its really a shame every desktop distro has that problem, then.
Sometimes, you install updates, even on your LTS branch distro, and stuff gets really broken. You can roll back, but can sometimes have to fiddle with the computer to get it working enough to where you can do that.
If you’ve got a mission critical workflow, you essentially need 2 computers, regardless of the OS you’re using.
Does this mandate include OS’s with no GUIs? Are the asshats writing this aware that there’s more than just Windows and Apple?
I think these laws are written with focus on Mobile where such os and app/website signalling is more prevalent
Probably. But they also aware that most of people use only apple or windows. Sadly, but in personal computers segment Linux is not very popular.
Whats up with these sudden age check laws being introduced everywhere?
Literally Israel
It’s part of the tech bro mass surveillance oligarchs and Israel tightening the freedom of speech noose worldwide
Governments wanting to identify and regulate speech under the guise of protecting children
The California law does not require age verification. Only attestation. From what I have heard the Colorado one is basically identical.
The NY one I have heard is more stringent. But I have not read that or the Colorado one.
Still a 1st Amendment violation, no? Compelling speach
While I can’t comment on any case law surrounding compelled speech. I don’t thing that this would qualify as compelled speech.
Just based off a quick web search it seems that compelled speech is more about the government telling news organizations to report what they tell them.
Hit everything at once, cause confusion and anger, distract from Epstein files and rising prices.
it’s a checkmark on a politicians career without them having to do anything real
there’s many issues politicians will rally under if they see that it’s minimal work + huge virtue signaling potential (think of the children ! )
Just a coincidence, don’t worry about it!
Facebook is lobbying them so they don’t have to do age checks on Instagram and can maximize the revenue
Fucking raise hell and cause chaos. Age checks are bullshit. All while our government is filled with corruption and pedophiles. Maybe stop listening to such an immoral entity.
This is the way. Come to the anarchist side. We have less cookies and a lot of FOSS
I’m so glad someone who can fight it is fighting it. They usually listen to companies more than people.
I’m saddened Democrats are pushing this before the midterms. They’re going to fumble this if they keep on this track.
California, Colorado and New York now.
Honestly is getting insane.
Given how many states are pushing legislation like this and how quickly they’re doing it, there’s effectively no way to push back against it…
I do hope that they stop this bullshit though.
Sometimes it freaks me out if I put my tinfoil hat on and start thinking that both sides are working together to move toward fascism.
Its almost like the democrats are also a right wing party. Left of far right has never meant left wing in this country. Hence the ratchet effect
Considering that a lot of the states doing this are blue, it would be understandable why one might think this.
They are both sides work for Israel
Add Illinois to the list.
PopOS best distro (?)
Thats like asking what hammer is best. You can use most if not all to drive nails, but not all are best suited for the task.
Pop_OS lets Ubuntu drive fast and break things while focusing hardware/driver support, makes it great for video games. The only program Ive ever had issues with is Davinci Resolve, but those issues with linux compatibility are of their own creation, not the OSs.
LTT Linux challenge is surely going well for PopOS…
Sure doesn’t seem like it, from my personal experience, as well as Linus of Linus Tech Tips’ experiences. Doesn’t mean we can’t root for the company when they throw their weight behind a good cause.
I would not take the case of a man clowning for views as typical.
LTT mentioned ACHTUNG ACHTUNG🚨
Yeah, tbf Linus hasn’t had a great, or even ok experience with any Linux distro…
no but you can use it anyway if you want
It’s been a solid one for a long time. I haven’t tried their new Cosmic based one recently, but it was always good.
I really don’t understand what the value they see in putting age checks on operating systems. Like where is this coming from? Who whispered in their ear that OS age checks are something that need to be done?
Palantir
They have unique digital fingerprints for everyone already pretty much, but they are not linked to official government IDs so there is still uncertainty I think over identification.
This makes everyone’s digital fingerprint linked on a government ID. Voila, now every person in America is known by Palantir and the government at all times (more or less). Great for genocide and targeting your political opponents and voters to set up sham elections.
It also tries to stop poors who don’t have drivers licenses in America from organizing as they can’t verify.
Now with Flock surveiling most of the US: Jaywalking or littering and a Democrat or worse, leftist? You are a criminal and intelligible to vote. Incoming trump 75+% win for an illegal 3rd term or Vance.
Thiel famously said “what if there was a way, through technology, to achieve your political goals without having to beg and plead to convince people who will never agree with you anyway”
Just want to clarify something about your comment since it feels like you have not had a chance to read the law yet.
(this is in reference to the Cali law but I am told the Colorado one is basically identical). The Cali law does not, in any way, require ID verification, it only requires that a parent attest to the age of their child when setting up an account for them.
This is not my argument for this exact law or any of these laws. I just want to make sure we all understand what we are talking about before going for the pitchforks.
Bit by bit have been common for way too long, you know that this is not the end goal
From what I can tell, the ‘age’ part is misdirection. They want to restrict computer use to the “good” people, to make it “safer”.
Using age restrictions first allows legislation to be passed “for the children” using the idea of potential harm to theoretical children. However, in practice, legislators expect the implementation of the age check to be capable of checking anything else they want to about your identity, as a prerequisite for access. Probably using a combination of face scans and ID scans.
I don’t even understand what good this is. what does this do for them? The government has a database of identities and now it’s going to have a database of identities with computers? for what? Steven uses Windows, Susie uses Linux.
if you’re using internet at home or on a cell phone, they’ve already got your online identity or whatever. what is it that I’m missing
You arent going deep enough. Its about building a web of all of your online identities to crush dissent and influence public opinion. Susie frequents anarchist.nexus under the user the_cloaked and there she seems to interact with another user, lilanarkiddy, a lot. Steven’s windows computer also reported that he frequents the site, under the user lilarnarkiddy. And you see where that will lead to.
It isn’t even just the government, big tech wants this too. They want to be able to track everything you do with your computer, and that’s more easily achieved if OS level identification is required. Big tech wants it for data harvesting and ad targeting, the government wants it for surveillance and narrative control. The end goal is government verified digital ID that will be required to use any operating system. There will be no anonymity anymore. This creates a panopticon effect in which people police themselves because they know they are always being watched. Furthermore, the information you receive in your social media feeds and web searches can be silently curated based on what is known about your political attitudes. It can all be managed by AI.
they already have digital fingerprints. they don’t need OS level anything to do this. smartphones are doing it all
To an extent, yes, but they could do it much more easily and accurately if there was a unique, biometric identifier associated with all your actions across your devices which cannot be disabled.
This is just the slippery slope argument.
The California law does not require verification. Only attestation.
California, as of today, does not require any kind of verification to install an OS (how it’s always been).
This law gets passed, now they require “attestation”.
A year or two from now, they’re gonna push for for actual age verification.
A year or two after that, the government will make a new law saying that your drivers license is no longer a valid form of identification, they’re gonna need a retina scan or some other form of “bio” identification.
Next thing you know, you’ll be pressing your dick imprint on your PC’s automated Cock-Scanner-v4 encryption tray that pops out of your laptop like a cd-rom drive every time you need to check your email.
Slippery slope, indeed.
Can you provide any sources for these? Maybe a california legislator saying they plan to do this? Or a proposed law? Otherwise it is just the slippery slope fallacy. While that doesn’t disprove what you said it does not provide a valid argument for it either.
Are you pre or post 9/11? It is very obvious that the slope is slippery.
Non-fallacious forms can also exist. It is fairly obvious that it is warranted in authoritarian regimes to expect progression (regression?).
The whole law is dumb. They need to create a standard universal method first. So when does this protection get applied? Can’t somebody just boot a thumb drive?
What about system accounts that don’t have a user? Super users? Automated installs? Embedded system? What age is the ec2 user in aws? There are so many questions that I’m sure don’t have a good answer in this garbage legislation.
All the other problems with it aside literally this… All operating system providers, including Linux somehow, are supposed to implement a system with a background API that can be pinged by websites through a method that hasn’t even been made yet… concept of a thing to your software that communicates with this other concept of a thing or else we fined into the ground effective in less than one year… Good luck.
Pssst Microsoft… pssst Apple… Don’t worry we’ll send you exactly what to put in your code. Just keep it to yourselves tho
How I understood it would be that the api could be implemented as an API contained within your os. So it would be more equivalent to comparing it to a system call like open file or allocate memory than a REST API.
Can’t somebody just boot a thumb drive?
This has gotten me especially curious about Tails.
when major websites start doing this weird browser or os based signature verification, tails isn’t going to work very well on them anymore. using the internet without your signature will probably be about as fun as it is to browse with tor right now
generate a new signature with some fake history for every site you visit
That’s what I was afraid of, and that sucks because using Tails could mean avoiding prison or worse for journalists doing certain work.
journalism is dead
It’s a solution that seems so divorced from reality… I don’t quite understand how the expectation is reasonable, unless the goal is to force complaints to surface from the OS developers so that they can refine future versions of the law with more accuracy.
Because Linux distributions can be created free-willy. Just check out Linux From Scratch, Gentoo, etc. Same with live boot from USB, same with stripped down server distros like Alpine — you have the same issue.
Linux isn’t a product in the same way that other products can be regulated. It would make more sense if they defined clearly who this law actually targets, being something that is actually enforceable; something like this:
- Any general-purpose computing device sold to consumers that includes an operating system capable of executing third-party applications…
- All systems built after <xyz> date must include a MINIX subos that reproduces this API…
- All browsers with GUI must support integration with the API, if they also want to support viewing of sensitive content
- All porn distributors must validate age range via the API exposed via the browser, or refuse serving content
That at least makes some sense. In a way, it only targets PC distributors and porn distributors. The end user could still do whatever they want, but porn distributors may not serve content to them without the functionality described.
Because Linux distributions can be created free-willy. Just check out Linux From Scratch, Gentoo, etc. Same with live boot from USB, same with stripped down server distros like Alpine — you have the same issue.
I don’t want to be “that person”, but here’s how it could play out…
The “free-willy” distros would not fulfill the “trust” requirements needed to pass the “certification process”. You can still use them, but think of it like running custom firmware on your cellphone: you’re not going to be able to access your bank, but somethings will still work.
Larger distros (Red Hat, Ubuntu, etc) would pay to pass the “certification process”, but this would come by making certain concessions:
- The kernel would not be allowed to be tainted. Which means you can only use official kernel modules provided by your vendor (no self-compiling)
- Certain kernel modules would needed to be removed (or nerfed). For example the Fuse filesystem.
- You could probably keep root access or at least a nerfed version of it.
Then with theses concessions, your PC world be deemed “reliable” to perform the necessary age verification and have this confirmation passed through your browser to your favor porn site.
Damn, that sounds like gunk. I’ve been so exciting about the day and age when phones reach the same level of customizability as a PC. Little did I know, they want to phoneify the PCs instead.
Yeah, I have wanted my phone to be more like a computer for a long time, not the other way around! This timeline sucks.
Lmao does the register really cite Reddit as a source? it was a cesspool off missinformation on the CA bill, I doubt it’s any better on the CO one.
Why not link to the actual bill like it does for other states?
It’s also wildly disingenuous to lump the bills that require verification and those that just require an OS store an unverified age and return it, but that’s what I’d expect from reddit.
There’s still valid concern about this being a foot in the door tactic. Once an OS complies with this request what will the next one be? Why should this even be allowed?
Either way though, the reddit citation is a bit unnerving.
It’s a gray area. If you have nothing to “protect the kids”, the feds might force it on a “non-compliant” state right now considering the fascism permeating our highest governments.
We’re starting to see desperate legislation more and more often. As a resident of CA, we had to vote FOR gerrymandering recently. It was disgusting, but it was direly needed to preserve democracy in the US.
Sure, but reddit (& Lemmy) hyperventilating about this as if the milktoast laws are the same as full retenal scanning verified by Palantir has completely destroyed any sort of sensible discussion around this.
Personally I think doing nothing isn’t an option and so the unverified age API approach is the least bad solution i’ve seen.
And much better than pushing the verification server side. The main argument I’ve seen against it is either:
-
slippery nipples means that at some point a different worse law could be passed, which is possible, but worse laws have already been passed elsewhere so if that was the intent they could have gone for it in CA/CO
-
Parents should watch their kids better, which is disingenuous as this is litterally adding a tool to help do that in a standard way, rather than some flakey survailance app.
To your second point, make it a tool that can be enabled by a parent then, don’t make it a legal requirement for everyone. This is exactly like the latest Ring camera pet tracking debacle. Everyone saw the slippery slope threat and then reports came out that it was indeed planned for expansion. This is the same but worse, because ring cameras are optional.
Parents should parent and the government should keep their greedy data compiling fingers out of our person tech. They’ve proven time and time again that they can’t be trusted to do the right thing.
The CA/CO approach doesn’t give the government any data, this is what I mean about reddit induced paranoia making sensible discussion impossible.
This is nowhere near as bad as Ring, I don’t get to control if Amazon are survailing me through my neighbors cameras, but I do get to decide what age input into my account setup screen, again trying to make storing my age sound worse than actual survailance tech linked to Palantir is insane!
Then I will refer to you first point. CA/CO now, full Id tomorrow. It’s completely unnecessary. If you can’t parent your child, don’t have a child. It’s not some paranoid delusion, it’s how the government operates.
What is your reason for why this should be required instead of an optional tool that users can enable?
Another example is how if you setup an MS live account when setting of a new computer, your bitlocker key is saved on MS’s servers. They recently turned some of those codes to the government to unlock user’s devices. It’s not exactly the same, but it just takes one update for an OS to send that stored information instead of just an API response.
Again you going of on tangents about MS, really doesn’t make your argument seem grounded in reality.
Sure it could be an optional tool all OSes must support, instead of a mandatory local API, but neither of them are the same as MS uploading encryption keys.
Why not? It’s exactly the same. You store creds on your computer, then they take them. The info has to be stored somewhere, and a windows update can take it. The point is that they have proved in the recent past to take user’s private information to give to the government. If they can do it with bitlocker, they can do it with stored info.
But regardless of all of that, it shouldn’t be mandatory anyway. It’s never been about children, it’s always about collecting data. If they are so hard on child safety, then give an optional tool to adults, and let them parent their children. Anything else is an overreach.
Even if this is all fear mongering, it’s still a dumb idea that has no place in personal electronics.
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I don’t want either. And it’s a slippery slope to the next stage, and the next. Eventually we will have no control over what we own and zero privacy.
A local API is slippery nipples to a survailance state who knew.
Why use a computer at all, it’s the first step towards mass surveillance, better go back to the abacus!
Your “sarcasm” is closer to the truth than what any of us can conceive, unfortunately.
Are we talking about biological age or mental age which means that most adults are still just honey teens with just a tad better impulse control?
So you are advocating for Leasure Suit Larry age verification questions.
Can I just type ‘roxorz boxorz’ and be done with it.
Honey teens sounds like a twister variant invented on Epstein island
