Software freely adding an option to somehow report ‘this user is underage’ is unavoidably distinct from the government mandating any form of requesting, storing, or sharing the user’s age.
Even if you honestly believe there’s no connection to states demanding ID collection before looking at porn - how can you not understand the people recoiling at this? ‘I get it but you’re mistaken’ would see a polite argument. Your apparent bewilderment is inexplicable. ‘Microsoft legally requires your birthdate before you boot up and the internet will work differently based on that’ must be a dark aside in some Cory Doctorow story. How is it our actual reality, which some people think is normal?
Well, from a privacy/freedom standpoint, how is this different from a website requiring you to enter your age and/or asking you to confirm that you’re 18? They record your age, store it with your data, then let you continue (or don’t). The fact that baffles me is that this is widely accepted as standard practice, and not a significant privacy concern, while having an account-level flag that does the exact same thing isn’t. Like, is it because its managed by the browser/OS/app store? In that case, why isn’t there the same backlash against the existance of things like system theme flags, user agents, and even usernames.
As if there’s no backlash for those things! No popular culture reflecting the baby boom on January 1st, 1900. No widespread browser plugins to make e-mail nags and sign-in pop-ups fuck off.
As if legally mandatory age reporting is in any way the same thing as haphazard adoption of a Dark Mode flag. Wikipedia’s not even smart enough to make Automatic the default.
On some level, a website named Porn Hub needing an interstitial that says ‘btw, you might see tits’ is the original sin of the internet. It’s borne of the same puritanical horseshit that tried banning pornography entirely. It’s not about children. They’re the excuse. This ongoing moral panic uses them in a widespread and not entirely unsuccessful effort to deny adult-ass adults the things that most of them want. This has been happening my entire life, and yours, and is why I cannot respect the hair-splitting insistence that forcing your OS to report your age is - somehow! - totally unrelated, utterly disconnected, having nothing to do with the many conservative governments who want to track every video you ever jerked off to.
I’m trying to give you the benifit of the doubt, but at this point you seem to increasing be resorting to insults, and arguing against stawmen, to the point where I’m having trouble even understanding what you’re saying. I’m doing my best to remain respectful and civil, but you aren’t returning the favour. That said, I am trying to give you a chance, and want to be open to being convinced. So…
If I understand what you’re trying to say, you think there should never be any prompt, warning, or other safety measure on any content? Not gore videos, not dating sites, not shock sites? Am I understanding you correctly, and if not, can you please restate your argument more clearly.
I don’t think I’ve said shit about you, as a person, beyond ‘your arguments are bad and you should feel bad,’ with an abundant side of ‘and here’s why.’ You’re getting the toned-down version of reflexive sarcasm at some baffling things you continue to say. By all means, let loose, because blunt honesty might get us closer to sharing the same reality.
I’ve already linked to where I said, content warnings good, age gating bad. You think this should replace all ‘I am 18’ prompts.
I’ve belabored the distinction between freely adopted implementation and any form of state enforcement. Like, there’s plenty wrong with user-agent strings, but even a simple requirement to accurately report browser version would be quietly horrifying. Robbing software developers of the ability to say ‘that was a bad security decision, let’s just not do it,’ is intrinsically fucked.
If you need it restated:
I despise the idea of my own damn machine needing to know my birthdate. Largely, but not entirely, because that points toward verification demands which you agree would be intolerable. The internet should not work differently based on who you are.
I don’t think this law will achieve anything worthwhile, and I’m not convinced you do either. Your defense of it is full of things I would say as condemnation.
I fully expect this to get worse, based on all recent visible trends. Countries are banning young people from using entire categories of website. Glorified chatrooms are asking to see your driver’s license. The last thing a liberated internet needs is more personal information.
even a simple requirement to accurately report browser version would be quietly horrifying
Maybe this is where the confusion comes from. The reason I think this is an acceptable idea, is specifically because there is no requirement for it to be accurate, and technically, it doesn’t seem possible to tack on a more intrusive system after the fact (owing to the fact that everything is stored locally). In effect, it seems to just be a, “filtering level” flag - something a user can chose to use (or not) to filter different types of content. This seems like its happening in parallel of government/corporate survailance, rather than in service to it.
Robbing software developers of the ability to say ‘that was a bad security decision, let’s just not do it,’ is intrinsically fucked.
Actually, this is the part I have the biggest issue with - esspecially because I don’t agree with some of the implementation details, like the requirement that the original input be a numerical/date input field, labeled as age rather than a bracket selection, or something else more clear and granular. At the same time, I think there is something to be said for government intervention in areas where private companies have failed to innovate/standardize, USB-C being the prime example.
That said, honestly, thinking about how suboptimal this is, even as a content filtering system… I think you’re right that this is the wrong approach. Something like flags marked for “hide sexual content”, “hide gore”, and “hude potentially disturbing content” would make far more sense than a set of unified age brackets. So, at least as a technical standard, consider me convinced that it shouldn’t be implemented.
Edit: I reread it and despite using the term “age bracket data” almost exclusively, the data is also not actually required to be abstracted. Given that the user is required to enter a numerical value or date, this means lazy and immoral developer will store it unabstracted, which is obviously unnecessary and makes it far less anonymous. That is completely unacceptable, esspecially for something being written into law, while far better solutions exist.
Software freely adding an option to somehow report ‘this user is underage’ is unavoidably distinct from the government mandating any form of requesting, storing, or sharing the user’s age.
Even if you honestly believe there’s no connection to states demanding ID collection before looking at porn - how can you not understand the people recoiling at this? ‘I get it but you’re mistaken’ would see a polite argument. Your apparent bewilderment is inexplicable. ‘Microsoft legally requires your birthdate before you boot up and the internet will work differently based on that’ must be a dark aside in some Cory Doctorow story. How is it our actual reality, which some people think is normal?
Well, from a privacy/freedom standpoint, how is this different from a website requiring you to enter your age and/or asking you to confirm that you’re 18? They record your age, store it with your data, then let you continue (or don’t). The fact that baffles me is that this is widely accepted as standard practice, and not a significant privacy concern, while having an account-level flag that does the exact same thing isn’t. Like, is it because its managed by the browser/OS/app store? In that case, why isn’t there the same backlash against the existance of things like system theme flags, user agents, and even usernames.
As if there’s no backlash for those things! No popular culture reflecting the baby boom on January 1st, 1900. No widespread browser plugins to make e-mail nags and sign-in pop-ups fuck off.
As if legally mandatory age reporting is in any way the same thing as haphazard adoption of a Dark Mode flag. Wikipedia’s not even smart enough to make Automatic the default.
On some level, a website named Porn Hub needing an interstitial that says ‘btw, you might see tits’ is the original sin of the internet. It’s borne of the same puritanical horseshit that tried banning pornography entirely. It’s not about children. They’re the excuse. This ongoing moral panic uses them in a widespread and not entirely unsuccessful effort to deny adult-ass adults the things that most of them want. This has been happening my entire life, and yours, and is why I cannot respect the hair-splitting insistence that forcing your OS to report your age is - somehow! - totally unrelated, utterly disconnected, having nothing to do with the many conservative governments who want to track every video you ever jerked off to.
For the children.
I’m trying to give you the benifit of the doubt, but at this point you seem to increasing be resorting to insults, and arguing against stawmen, to the point where I’m having trouble even understanding what you’re saying. I’m doing my best to remain respectful and civil, but you aren’t returning the favour. That said, I am trying to give you a chance, and want to be open to being convinced. So…
If I understand what you’re trying to say, you think there should never be any prompt, warning, or other safety measure on any content? Not gore videos, not dating sites, not shock sites? Am I understanding you correctly, and if not, can you please restate your argument more clearly.
I don’t think I’ve said shit about you, as a person, beyond ‘your arguments are bad and you should feel bad,’ with an abundant side of ‘and here’s why.’ You’re getting the toned-down version of reflexive sarcasm at some baffling things you continue to say. By all means, let loose, because blunt honesty might get us closer to sharing the same reality.
I’ve already linked to where I said, content warnings good, age gating bad. You think this should replace all ‘I am 18’ prompts.
I’ve belabored the distinction between freely adopted implementation and any form of state enforcement. Like, there’s plenty wrong with user-agent strings, but even a simple requirement to accurately report browser version would be quietly horrifying. Robbing software developers of the ability to say ‘that was a bad security decision, let’s just not do it,’ is intrinsically fucked.
If you need it restated:
I despise the idea of my own damn machine needing to know my birthdate. Largely, but not entirely, because that points toward verification demands which you agree would be intolerable. The internet should not work differently based on who you are.
I don’t think this law will achieve anything worthwhile, and I’m not convinced you do either. Your defense of it is full of things I would say as condemnation.
I fully expect this to get worse, based on all recent visible trends. Countries are banning young people from using entire categories of website. Glorified chatrooms are asking to see your driver’s license. The last thing a liberated internet needs is more personal information.
Maybe this is where the confusion comes from. The reason I think this is an acceptable idea, is specifically because there is no requirement for it to be accurate, and technically, it doesn’t seem possible to tack on a more intrusive system after the fact (owing to the fact that everything is stored locally). In effect, it seems to just be a, “filtering level” flag - something a user can chose to use (or not) to filter different types of content. This seems like its happening in parallel of government/corporate survailance, rather than in service to it.
Actually, this is the part I have the biggest issue with - esspecially because I don’t agree with some of the implementation details, like the requirement that the original input be a numerical/date input field, labeled as age rather than a bracket selection, or something else more clear and granular. At the same time, I think there is something to be said for government intervention in areas where private companies have failed to innovate/standardize, USB-C being the prime example.
That said, honestly, thinking about how suboptimal this is, even as a content filtering system… I think you’re right that this is the wrong approach. Something like flags marked for “hide sexual content”, “hide gore”, and “hude potentially disturbing content” would make far more sense than a set of unified age brackets. So, at least as a technical standard, consider me convinced that it shouldn’t be implemented.
Edit: I reread it and despite using the term “age bracket data” almost exclusively, the data is also not actually required to be abstracted. Given that the user is required to enter a numerical value or date, this means lazy and immoral developer will store it unabstracted, which is obviously unnecessary and makes it far less anonymous. That is completely unacceptable, esspecially for something being written into law, while far better solutions exist.