but “Actually, Russia does veto more!” isn’t the interesting part.
Your words:
Because normal countries don’t see the veto as a first line of defense. In fact, normal countries don’t see the veto at all. SC vetos are not, as you present it, normal procedure for normal countries. Hell, even permanent SC members don’t just plop vetos willy-nilly.
I didn’t sneak it in, I wrote “directly” because Israel has attacked Iran directly, and repeatedly.
Please refrain from moving goal posts. Your words:
Once again, you’re criticizing Iran for announcing destruction they haven’t actually done
…implying Iran is only words but no actions. Although they very much act, but through the hands of their affiliated terror groups.
Frankly, I think they already have accepted it
Doesn’t sound like it, when you’re listening to their officials. Not now, not prior to Israel’s attack. So what’s your basis for this assumption?
You “can accept […] member states, facing exigent circumstances, themselves take matters into their own hands”, and that “exigent circumstances” is defined by the mighty, “As has been the case all along”.
No. The existence of these exigent circumstances never was up for debate: the occurring ethnic cleansing was not a secret. It is not like those states made up a “trust me bro” story like for example the US did a couple of years later with Iraq. The UN knew about it but still wasn’t capable to act accordingly due to being deadlocked - yet again. Hence, as was the case numerous times before and will be the case countless times in the future, states acted on their own behalf. And in this case, I can understand it, as, we’ve been through this before, the existing exigent circumstances called for immediate action. I don’t see the same quality of reasons when Russia, because it can, invades Ukraine, or the US, because it can, decides to abduct Maduro.
The main problem I have is that the UN, due to this veto architecture, is not capable of responding appropriately in situations where it, as the guardian and agent of the international law we once agreed upon, should defend this law specifically. There’s a backdoor for certain countries to hinder, stop, override the actions of the UN. But not for others, rendering these principles undemocratic and useless.
so you accept might to make right sometimes, but other times, nations must be limited and not do as they please.
Most of the times, nations must be limited and not do as they please. But that mechanism isn’t here. A group of nations CAN do just as they please. For decades. And right now, they are as unhinged as ever, showing us that they no longer care what we think about that.
And it’s not a competition, but a comparison.
Time and time again, I see arguments made by what I’m sure are people who consider themselves egalitarian, that basically boil down to “the good guys should just kill all the bad guys”
Fine. But since I never made that claim, please don’t vent that frustration on me. I told you what I’m criticising - the general principle irrespective of who is using it - and how little this has to do with the whole tribalistic competition between the badness of the individual actors of the Middle East conflict … Frankly, these are the most toxic and useless discussions to be had on the internet. I’m really not interested.
However, to prevent enforcement turning into Another Other Big One, the major powers were given the veto, to block actions that would end with them fighting eachother.
But what has that given us? In a world full of nukes, these countries wouldn’t fight directly with each other anyway. As, luckily, no-one is keen on fighting a war that can’t be won. On the other hand though, these countries effectively received a perpetual get-out-of-jail card. This card frees them from consequences from their own actions, frees them from the need to compromise. All of which the other countries that weren’t as privileged didn’t receive. So we have a two-class system: the vast group of commoners that must play along nicely or sufficiently suck up to one of the elites to be protected (fueling political bloc formation), and the elites that can choose how much they want to play along. At the same time, this severely undermines and even destroys the effectiveness of international law, as it can at any point be halted/stalled by these countries and they can’t be held responsible. It is a flaw that must be fixed, should the whole construct of international law have any form of future.
Worse yet, if a country breaks the law, then hides under a veto to get away with it, the veto itself is still the same as a regular veto stonewall, but instead of freezing an issue or kicking the can down the road, it has turned into an “I can do what i want” card. If the lawbreaking continues, and there’s no response, countries will eventually decide there are no laws and go rogue, until they’re either brought back in line or the line disappears. It won’t happen instantly, but every time it happens the community gets a little bit closer to falling apart. And if it does, you’re back to might-makes-right, at least until another war reminds everyone why we made the system in the first place.
My point exactly.
“I find this decision, that the majority of the council agrees with, so unacceptable that I am considering going to war over this!”
(X) Doubt. And big time! Look at the linked source. Most of the first 30ish? vetoes were about countries’ membership applications. This was pure tactical political power play to secure/gain majorities but nothing you actually would send your tank for against the other political bloc.
we now have a situation of the international community facing at least two veto powers wilding out. This is not good.
Yes. Exactly. Being a veto power is a privilege and should be honoured accordingly by the nations holding this privilege. I can see that less and less.
I take a dim view of “yes, it’s illegal, but it’s the right thing to do”.
It depends on the circumstances. And, let’s be real, most don’t really care about these but rather only about who’s doing it. Back at the tribalistic m.o. For some, it is just fundamentally wrong because it was “NATO”/“the US” and they build their entire (political) world view around the core principle of opposing them. I’m not implying you’re one of them, but I guess you’ll know what kind of people I mean. On the other hand, you’ve got those that cheer for the US whatever they do. Who don’t care about the countries on the receiving end of US military ambitions, because it is the land of the free bringing democracy. But we’re speaking about this case specifically, and I really have to say, given these specific circumstances, I can understand why NATO did what they did.
It’s also why I have more patience with countries that operate by supporting their enemies’ enemies, instead of blowing up embassies and murdering negotiators outright.
Well. I don’t. Because I’m certain its not their determination holding them back but their possibilities. An Iran with the political and military possibilities of the US wouldn’t resort to funding terrorist groups in the counties neighbouring their enemy. Similarly, if Trump was “only” the president of a US with the strength and the possibilities of Iran, he couldn’t kidnap Maduro with impunity or bomb other countries just as he pleases. He also would have to resort to stirring up as much dirt with the means he has at hands. But his goals and ambitions would remain the same power-hungry, criminal and outright unhinged. Same with the Mullahs.
Correct. The amounts used don’t affect any of that.
Please refrain from moving goal posts.
Likewise. My claim isn’t that they did nothing, but that what they do do doesn’t look like an attempt at nation-destruction in any serious way. If they did, it would look like… well, what Israel is doing to them right now. So, yknow, doing it again.
The existence of these exigent circumstances never was up for debate: […] I don’t see the same quality of reasons when Russia, because it can, invades Ukraine, or the US, because it can, decides to abduct Maduro.
And that’s the thing. You see the quality then, but not later. That’s the entire problem. You may see abducting Maduro as gross breach of sovereignty, but from what I’ve seen, quite a lot of EU heads of state are of the “well, dictator, illegitimate” opinion. You may see the Russian invasion as a direct waging of aggressive war, but ever since 2008, Russia more or less structures it’s justifications as mirrors of the NATO one and going “What, you did it too!”. Hell, right now, the US and Israel are engaged in a war that they can’t even give an excuse for, and Carney, who just came back from Davos and the “remove the sign from the window” speech put the sign right back were it was. Your entire argument works perfectly as long as there’s either an absolute judge of right, or a universal agreement of what right is, but if that were true that consensus would be law and there wouldn’t be a need to break the law in the first place.
The main problem I have is that the UN, due to this veto architecture, is not capable of responding appropriately in situations where it, as the guardian and agent of the international law we once agreed upon, should defend this law specifically. There’s a backdoor for certain countries to hinder, stop, override the actions of the UN. But not for others, rendering these principles undemocratic and useless.
This is a fair complaint. But I point again to the problem it was trying to solve: to make a UN, you have to convince countries to give up some of their sovereignty to an external force. The League of Nations failed because A) a bunch of countries left the minute they didn’t like a ruling, and B) a bunch didn’t even join because they didn’t wanna risk even getting to that point. The veto was a way to coax them into the community and get them to see the value in staying, instead of taking their toys and leaving. And if that sounds fucked to you, I’d point out that the issue right now is they decided even that was too restrictive.
so you accept might to make right sometimes, but other times, nations must be limited and not do as they please.
Most of the times, nations must be limited and not do as they please. But that mechanism isn’t here. A group of nations CAN do just as they please. For decades. And right now, they are as unhinged as ever, showing us that they no longer care what we think about that.
I… no. The “but” there doesn’t do anything. The rest of the statement is unrelated to the first sentence, and the first sentence is what I’m pointing at. You say you care about the underlying mechanisms, but I don’t see you making the connection here.
But what has that given us? In a world full of nukes, these countries wouldn’t fight directly with each other anyway. As, luckily, no-one is keen on fighting a war that can’t be won.
Ouf, this is a very dangerous assumption, particularly in a world where one of those powers has an unofficial-official policy of “we’re taking you all with us” and two are run by geriatrics who clearly haven’t made peace with their own mortality, one of which’s warchief just said they’re doing Armageddon to bring Jesus back. Not to mention, if taken for granted, it would mean that any country with a nuke is incentivized to immediately get troops involved into any dispute that may interest another power, just to mark the territory.
My point exactly.
But the nuance I was making is this part: “the veto itself is still the same”. The fundamental problem that makes vetos broken, from a systems standpoint, is the law-breaking. It alone is not exactly fantastic, but is limited. It’s the second part that turns it gamebreaking.
(X) Doubt. And big time! Look at the linked source. Most of the first 30ish? vetoes were about countries’ membership applications. This was pure tactical political power play to secure/gain majorities but nothing you actually would send your tank for against the other political bloc.
“Jain”. It’s an announcement, it could be a bluff, might not.
It depends on the circumstances.
The problem with this is the same as with the “mostly” above. Though I am reminded of an old Chris Rock routine (no, not that one) where he talks about OJ and the murder of his wife, and the repeating punchline is “Now I’m not saying he should’ve done it, but I understand”. There’s a big gap between “I understand” and “he should’ve done it”.
Well. I don’t. Because I’m certain its not their determination holding them back but their possibilities. An Iran with the political and military possibilities of the US wouldn’t resort to funding terrorist groups in the counties neighbouring their enemy. Similarly, if Trump was “only” the president of a US with the strength and the possibilities of Iran, he couldn’t kidnap Maduro with impunity or bomb other countries just as he pleases. He also would have to resort to stirring up as much dirt with the means he has at hands. But his goals and ambitions would remain the same power-hungry, criminal and outright unhinged. Same with the Mullahs.
…I’m tempted to say “you’re doing it again” again, but actually this poses an interesting question: say, for example, Iran had US military possibilities. Like, somewhere in 2024, they somehow get ahold of, IDK, a US carrier group or two, and then proceed to use it to bomb Israel to force them to get out of Gaza and retreat… let’s say back into the 1967 borders. Would you approve?
Correct. The amounts used don’t affect any of that.
Again, your words:
SC vetos are not, as you present it, normal procedure for normal countries.
Frankly, graph and link show that this is not true.
My claim isn’t that they did nothing, but that what they do do doesn’t look like an attempt at nation-destruction in any serious way. If they did, it would look like… well, what Israel is doing to them right now.
You’re mixing up aspiration and possibilities.
And that’s the thing. You see the quality then, but not later. That’s the entire problem. You may see abducting Maduro as gross breach of sovereignty, but from what I’ve seen, quite a lot of EU heads of state are of the “well, dictator, illegitimate” opinion. You may see the Russian invasion as a direct waging of aggressive war, but ever since 2008, Russia more or less structures it’s justifications as mirrors of the NATO one and going “What, you did it too!”.
NATO 1999: evident violations of basic human rights. Do you agree?
Maduro: IS a dictator and IS illegitimate, but still I say abducting him like that is wrong.
Russia: NATO or any of its member states didn’t invade a neighbouring country in the biggest war since WW2 in order to annex and expand the own borders. I know too well that Russia and their sycophants love to play that “just mirroring NATO!!1” card as a shabby veil to hide their indigenous blatant imperialism under. But that “argument” has always just been a steaming pile of bs.
And if that sounds fucked to you, I’d point out that the issue right now is they decided even that was too restrictive.
It isn’t restrictive as it didn’t hinder them to do what they wanted to do all along. Rather, in a world of Putins and Trumps, no side is trying to be the “better” side by following the rules - more or less. Instead, they released all brakes and don’t care anymore. Yes, I understood your explanation on why the UN was designed that way, but that cannot be the end of the story. Especially, after seeing what kind of problems come along with it. This thing needs to be further evolved instead of just saying: well, it is what it is. Otherwise, as can be seen right now, the whole thing will go down.
Ouf, this is a very dangerous assumption, particularly in a world where one of those powers has an unofficial-official policy of “we’re taking you all with us” and two are run by geriatrics who clearly haven’t made peace with their own mortality, one of which’s warchief just said they’re doing Armageddon to bring Jesus back. Not to mention, if taken for granted, it would mean that any country with a nuke is incentivized to immediately get troops involved into any dispute that may interest another power, just to mark the territory.
Well, it is a dangerous world we live in, merely hanging by a thread. No point hiding from that hard truth. The only thing keeping us kinda safe is that neither of these geriatrics has the power to completely single-handedly actually fire the nukes. There’s other people in the lines of command from his button to the ship/silo carrying the warhead that the lunacy of only one mustn’t necessarily mean the end of us all. But a UN, which especially is toothless against the veto peers, is of no use for the disputes between the nuclear elite.
The fundamental problem that makes vetos broken, from a systems standpoint, is the law-breaking.
Since we’re eventually deal with people here, there will always be the drive to test out boundaries. If there’s the possibility, there will be law-breaking. Hence, since the law-breaking will occur, you must ensure that it can be punished.
It’s an announcement, it could be a bluff, might not.
An announcement must be treated as a veto. Otherwise, there’s no point announcing it.
There’s a big gap between “I understand” and “he should’ve done it”.
Well. In a world with the UN working the way it does (or rather doesn’t), we’ll face that dilemma time and time again. Instead of reacting to urgent causes like violation of human rights, we will argue about the existence of these urgent causes, their legitimacy, who brought them forward, what they might gain from it, etc… but we won’t respond to it, helping those in need. As said, I made my choice regarding this specific intervention - knowing that I’d also prefer a system that would actually work internationally and would abolish the need (and possibility) of unilateral action. But until we have that…
Would you approve?
That largely depends on what you mean by “approve” and the actual bombing done. Carpet-bombing Israeli cities to kill as many “Jewish infidels” as possible won’t find my “approval”, especially as in advocating, ever. But an hypothetical Iran without the wish to simply annihilate Israel targetting IDF and other legitimate targets to get them to retreat to their international borders, I could “approve”, as in I understand why they did it - same as I understand why NATO bombed Yugoslavia.
Frankly, graph and link show that this is not true.
The countries on that graph, by virtue of being on that graph, are not normal countries. That precisely was my point.
You’re mixing up aspiration and possibilities.
Possibly, but right now, one of the two countries you brought up talks about destruction, and the other is currently, as we speak, bombing desalination plants. If the possibilities were different, maybe the aspirations would be as well.
Do you agree?
And that’s the thing: What if I don’t? The inherent problem remains: if the kind of consensus you assume were real, it would just be law.
Yes, I understood your explanation on why the UN was designed that way, but that cannot be the end of the story.
That much is, at least, clear, the way things worked so far is pretty much over. Unless you’re Mark Carney, apparently.
There’s other people in the lines of command
From what I’ve seen these “other people” go through with in just the last week or two, I’m not exactly heartened.
Since we’re eventually deal with people here, there will always be the drive to test out boundaries. If there’s the possibility, there will be law-breaking. Hence, since the law-breaking will occur, you must ensure that it can be punished.
Fully agree. But punishing law-breaking by breaking the law is just the Dirty Harry thing again.
An announcement must be treated as a veto. Otherwise, there’s no point announcing it.
…Yes?
That largely depends on what you mean by “approve” and the actual bombing done. Carpet-bombing Israeli cities to kill as many “Jewish infidels” as possible won’t find my “approval”, especially as in advocating, ever. But an hypothetical Iran without the wish to simply annihilate Israel targetting IDF and other legitimate targets to get them to retreat to their international borders, I could “approve”, as in I understand why they did it - same as I understand why NATO bombed Yugoslavia.
Reasonable. Now, suppose they don’t have that kind of muscle, and instead all they can do is, IDK, try and muster a bunch of regional, allied or loosely affiliated militias to maybe try and enforce a half-blockade of shipping through the Red Sea, or maybe attack a few army outposts on the opposite end of the country…
The countries on that graph, by virtue of being on that graph, are not normal countries. That precisely was my point.
Of course they are not normal countries - but vastly privileged ones. Exactly the point I’m trying to convey. Why would we talk about “normal” countries here, when the veto is exclusively available to these few? And - that’s the point of the graph and the linked list - these few privileged countries made ample use of their veto power. Even for trivia such as admitting country xyz to the UN - a question neither of them would go to war for with each other. Have we settled this point?
one of the two countries you brought up talks about destruction
That is again severely downplaying the actions of Iran. Iran has actively funded, equipped, supported… terrorist groups that spread terror, death and destruction over Israel for decades. Given the situation Iran is in, they are putting a lot of effort into the cause of fighting Israel as a country, with the clear stated goal to do so to destroy it. I really don’t get why you wouldn’t acknowledge that, as it doesn’t take anything away from Israel being wrong for their own actions. You literally don’t lose anything, you still can criticise Israel for everything they’re responsible of.
And that’s the thing: What if I don’t?
You wouldn’t agree that there were violations of basic human rights occurring there? Are you really sure?
if the kind of consensus you assume were real, it would just be law.
It already is law. Just the body destined to enforce it has been stripped of the full authority to do so. We gave ourselves a police but allowed the biggest land owners to prohibit them access to their property whenever they feel like it and irrespective of what violations of these laws they do.
From what I’ve seen these “other people” go through with in just the last week or two, I’m not exactly heartened.
There’s a very strong difference in going through with dropping bombs targetted to buildings of an enemy army, knowing the destruction will be limited to a couple of hundred metres at worst, and going through with launching weapons that will inevitably not only end the enemy but also you and your family, the entire world. Don’t you think?
But punishing law-breaking by breaking the law is just the Dirty Harry thing again.
Just watching the law-breaking idly is also just Dirty Harry. Only that you chose to accept your fate of being object to the lawlessness of the others. Why would a country do that?
…Yes?
Well, you said ““Jain”. It’s an announcement, it could be a bluff, might not.” to me raising the point that the veto powers used their vetos for tactical political power play rather than solely serious matters they’d actually be ready to go to war over. To which I reply that an announcement must be treated as a veto, hence it only works if the other side musn’t see it as a bluff. Otherwise, the point of the announcement vanishes.
Now, suppose they don’t have that kind of muscle, and instead all they can do is, IDK, try and muster a bunch of regional, allied or loosely affiliated militias to maybe try and enforce a half-blockade of shipping through the Red Sea, or maybe attack a few army outposts on the opposite end of the country…
…except they did that - using allied militias/terrorist groups under their guidance and equipment - for decades already, while Israel decided it would be a smart move to bomb the whole country - to achieve what? - last week. Normally, a reaction comes after the action. And that’s exactly my problem in that entire conflict. People love to paint a conflict black and white that is filled to the brim with a plethora of entangled shades.
Of course they are not normal countries - but vastly privileged ones. Exactly the point I’m trying to convey. Why would we talk about “normal” countries here, when the veto is exclusively available to these few? And - that’s the point of the graph and the linked list - these few privileged countries made ample use of their veto power.
Because the original remark was “explicit protection of one of the big veto powers, be it Iran and Russia or Israel and the US”, and my whole point is one of those countries is normal, two aren’t, and the last one should be normal, but very much is not. So when you put the four in a sentence, it sounds reasonable to assume everyone can call on a veto whenever, when, in fact, the odd one out is the only one that’s not an outlier.
Even for trivia such as admitting country xyz to the UN - a question neither of them would go to war for with each other. Have we settled this point?
This is a digression, but: this is not trivia. Accession control is vote control. Also, a legitimacy claim. I can only imagine China’s reaction to Taiwan getting back in.
That is again severely downplaying the actions of Iran. Iran has actively funded, equipped, supported… terrorist groups that spread terror, death and destruction over Israel for decades. Given the situation Iran is in, they are putting a lot of effort into the cause of fighting Israel as a country, with the clear stated goal to do so to destroy it. I really don’t get why you wouldn’t acknowledge that, as it doesn’t take anything away from Israel being wrong for their own actions. You literally don’t lose anything, you still can criticise Israel for everything they’re responsible of.
Because I don’t think you’re being even-handed, so I’m trying to knock you out of the talking points and put you into the other side’s shoes. For example…
…except they did that - using allied militias/terrorist groups under their guidance and equipment - for decades already, while Israel decided it would be a smart move to bomb the whole country - to achieve what? - last week. Normally, a reaction comes after the action. And that’s exactly my problem in that entire conflict. People love to paint a conflict black and white that is filled to the brim with a plethora of entangled shades.
…the ‘action’ only happened last week, but the hypothetical wasn’t about self-defense, it was about illegal intervention in prevention of gross human rights violations. Those didn’t begin last week, did they? Or, in fact, was Iran really only attacked last week?
You wouldn’t agree that there were violations of basic human rights occurring there? Are you really sure?
Oh, there were. I was replying to the whole block with the question.
We gave ourselves a police but allowed the biggest land owners to prohibit them access to their property whenever they feel like it and irrespective of what violations of these laws they do.
…Well, the police shouldn’t be able to just access your property, not without a warrant. That some fatcats are warrant-proof is true, though.
There’s a very strong difference in going through with dropping bombs targetted to buildings of an enemy army, knowing the destruction will be limited to a couple of hundred metres at worst, and going through with launching weapons that will inevitably not only end the enemy but also you and your family, the entire world. Don’t you think?
IDK, they’re already making excuses, what’s one more? In fact, we already have one: Jesus is coming back, you won’t die, you’ll be raptured! Like, this isn’t just bad governance, these people act like a fucking apocalypse cult.
Just watching the law-breaking idly is also just Dirty Harry.
Well, more like the Uvalde cops, I guess. Or those cops in that town run by scientologists.
be it Iran and Russia or Israel and the US”, and my whole point is one of those countries is normal, two aren’t, and the last one should be normal, but very much is not.
Frankly, none of these countries is normal at all. It is a bit concerning that you apparently think otherwise.
So when you put the four in a sentence, it sounds reasonable to assume everyone can call on a veto whenever
Not everyone, but two of these CAN call a veto whenever, to the benefit of whoever… Why should we pretend it isn’t so? Again, while you’re apparently very much focussed on who actually used the veto when, I am not. I am criticising the fact that the mere possibility exists.
This is a digression, but: this is not trivia. Accession control is vote control.
Yea… pretty hard to establish an international institution to handle international relation between countries if you end up using your vetos for countries you don’t even have any direct dispute with just to mess with your opponent. Political power play, no reason to actually go to war over.
Or, in fact, was Iran really only attacked last week?
Was Iran attacked by Israel before they started to fund and steer all of their terror pawns in Arab countries several decades ago? Before they announced their objective to eliminate Israel?
That some fatcats are warrant-proof is true, though.
…and these fatcats can extend their shield against any warrant to anyone. That is a problem.
IDK, they’re already making excuses, what’s one more?
Talk is cheap. Actually pushing the button that will end the wold isn’t.
Your words:
Please refrain from moving goal posts. Your words:
…implying Iran is only words but no actions. Although they very much act, but through the hands of their affiliated terror groups.
Doesn’t sound like it, when you’re listening to their officials. Not now, not prior to Israel’s attack. So what’s your basis for this assumption?
No. The existence of these exigent circumstances never was up for debate: the occurring ethnic cleansing was not a secret. It is not like those states made up a “trust me bro” story like for example the US did a couple of years later with Iraq. The UN knew about it but still wasn’t capable to act accordingly due to being deadlocked - yet again. Hence, as was the case numerous times before and will be the case countless times in the future, states acted on their own behalf. And in this case, I can understand it, as, we’ve been through this before, the existing exigent circumstances called for immediate action. I don’t see the same quality of reasons when Russia, because it can, invades Ukraine, or the US, because it can, decides to abduct Maduro.
The main problem I have is that the UN, due to this veto architecture, is not capable of responding appropriately in situations where it, as the guardian and agent of the international law we once agreed upon, should defend this law specifically. There’s a backdoor for certain countries to hinder, stop, override the actions of the UN. But not for others, rendering these principles undemocratic and useless.
Most of the times, nations must be limited and not do as they please. But that mechanism isn’t here. A group of nations CAN do just as they please. For decades. And right now, they are as unhinged as ever, showing us that they no longer care what we think about that.
Fine. But since I never made that claim, please don’t vent that frustration on me. I told you what I’m criticising - the general principle irrespective of who is using it - and how little this has to do with the whole tribalistic competition between the badness of the individual actors of the Middle East conflict … Frankly, these are the most toxic and useless discussions to be had on the internet. I’m really not interested.
But what has that given us? In a world full of nukes, these countries wouldn’t fight directly with each other anyway. As, luckily, no-one is keen on fighting a war that can’t be won. On the other hand though, these countries effectively received a perpetual get-out-of-jail card. This card frees them from consequences from their own actions, frees them from the need to compromise. All of which the other countries that weren’t as privileged didn’t receive. So we have a two-class system: the vast group of commoners that must play along nicely or sufficiently suck up to one of the elites to be protected (fueling political bloc formation), and the elites that can choose how much they want to play along. At the same time, this severely undermines and even destroys the effectiveness of international law, as it can at any point be halted/stalled by these countries and they can’t be held responsible. It is a flaw that must be fixed, should the whole construct of international law have any form of future.
My point exactly.
(X) Doubt. And big time! Look at the linked source. Most of the first 30ish? vetoes were about countries’ membership applications. This was pure tactical political power play to secure/gain majorities but nothing you actually would send your tank for against the other political bloc.
Yes. Exactly. Being a veto power is a privilege and should be honoured accordingly by the nations holding this privilege. I can see that less and less.
It depends on the circumstances. And, let’s be real, most don’t really care about these but rather only about who’s doing it. Back at the tribalistic m.o. For some, it is just fundamentally wrong because it was “NATO”/“the US” and they build their entire (political) world view around the core principle of opposing them. I’m not implying you’re one of them, but I guess you’ll know what kind of people I mean. On the other hand, you’ve got those that cheer for the US whatever they do. Who don’t care about the countries on the receiving end of US military ambitions, because it is the land of the free bringing democracy. But we’re speaking about this case specifically, and I really have to say, given these specific circumstances, I can understand why NATO did what they did.
Well. I don’t. Because I’m certain its not their determination holding them back but their possibilities. An Iran with the political and military possibilities of the US wouldn’t resort to funding terrorist groups in the counties neighbouring their enemy. Similarly, if Trump was “only” the president of a US with the strength and the possibilities of Iran, he couldn’t kidnap Maduro with impunity or bomb other countries just as he pleases. He also would have to resort to stirring up as much dirt with the means he has at hands. But his goals and ambitions would remain the same power-hungry, criminal and outright unhinged. Same with the Mullahs.
Correct. The amounts used don’t affect any of that.
Likewise. My claim isn’t that they did nothing, but that what they do do doesn’t look like an attempt at nation-destruction in any serious way. If they did, it would look like… well, what Israel is doing to them right now. So, yknow, doing it again.
And that’s the thing. You see the quality then, but not later. That’s the entire problem. You may see abducting Maduro as gross breach of sovereignty, but from what I’ve seen, quite a lot of EU heads of state are of the “well, dictator, illegitimate” opinion. You may see the Russian invasion as a direct waging of aggressive war, but ever since 2008, Russia more or less structures it’s justifications as mirrors of the NATO one and going “What, you did it too!”. Hell, right now, the US and Israel are engaged in a war that they can’t even give an excuse for, and Carney, who just came back from Davos and the “remove the sign from the window” speech put the sign right back were it was. Your entire argument works perfectly as long as there’s either an absolute judge of right, or a universal agreement of what right is, but if that were true that consensus would be law and there wouldn’t be a need to break the law in the first place.
This is a fair complaint. But I point again to the problem it was trying to solve: to make a UN, you have to convince countries to give up some of their sovereignty to an external force. The League of Nations failed because A) a bunch of countries left the minute they didn’t like a ruling, and B) a bunch didn’t even join because they didn’t wanna risk even getting to that point. The veto was a way to coax them into the community and get them to see the value in staying, instead of taking their toys and leaving. And if that sounds fucked to you, I’d point out that the issue right now is they decided even that was too restrictive.
I… no. The “but” there doesn’t do anything. The rest of the statement is unrelated to the first sentence, and the first sentence is what I’m pointing at. You say you care about the underlying mechanisms, but I don’t see you making the connection here.
Ouf, this is a very dangerous assumption, particularly in a world where one of those powers has an unofficial-official policy of “we’re taking you all with us” and two are run by geriatrics who clearly haven’t made peace with their own mortality, one of which’s warchief just said they’re doing Armageddon to bring Jesus back. Not to mention, if taken for granted, it would mean that any country with a nuke is incentivized to immediately get troops involved into any dispute that may interest another power, just to mark the territory.
But the nuance I was making is this part: “the veto itself is still the same”. The fundamental problem that makes vetos broken, from a systems standpoint, is the law-breaking. It alone is not exactly fantastic, but is limited. It’s the second part that turns it gamebreaking.
“Jain”. It’s an announcement, it could be a bluff, might not.
The problem with this is the same as with the “mostly” above. Though I am reminded of an old Chris Rock routine (no, not that one) where he talks about OJ and the murder of his wife, and the repeating punchline is “Now I’m not saying he should’ve done it, but I understand”. There’s a big gap between “I understand” and “he should’ve done it”.
…I’m tempted to say “you’re doing it again” again, but actually this poses an interesting question: say, for example, Iran had US military possibilities. Like, somewhere in 2024, they somehow get ahold of, IDK, a US carrier group or two, and then proceed to use it to bomb Israel to force them to get out of Gaza and retreat… let’s say back into the 1967 borders. Would you approve?
Again, your words:
Frankly, graph and link show that this is not true.
You’re mixing up aspiration and possibilities.
NATO 1999: evident violations of basic human rights. Do you agree?
Maduro: IS a dictator and IS illegitimate, but still I say abducting him like that is wrong.
Russia: NATO or any of its member states didn’t invade a neighbouring country in the biggest war since WW2 in order to annex and expand the own borders. I know too well that Russia and their sycophants love to play that “just mirroring NATO!!1” card as a shabby veil to hide their indigenous blatant imperialism under. But that “argument” has always just been a steaming pile of bs.
It isn’t restrictive as it didn’t hinder them to do what they wanted to do all along. Rather, in a world of Putins and Trumps, no side is trying to be the “better” side by following the rules - more or less. Instead, they released all brakes and don’t care anymore. Yes, I understood your explanation on why the UN was designed that way, but that cannot be the end of the story. Especially, after seeing what kind of problems come along with it. This thing needs to be further evolved instead of just saying: well, it is what it is. Otherwise, as can be seen right now, the whole thing will go down.
Well, it is a dangerous world we live in, merely hanging by a thread. No point hiding from that hard truth. The only thing keeping us kinda safe is that neither of these geriatrics has the power to completely single-handedly actually fire the nukes. There’s other people in the lines of command from his button to the ship/silo carrying the warhead that the lunacy of only one mustn’t necessarily mean the end of us all. But a UN, which especially is toothless against the veto peers, is of no use for the disputes between the nuclear elite.
Since we’re eventually deal with people here, there will always be the drive to test out boundaries. If there’s the possibility, there will be law-breaking. Hence, since the law-breaking will occur, you must ensure that it can be punished.
An announcement must be treated as a veto. Otherwise, there’s no point announcing it.
Well. In a world with the UN working the way it does (or rather doesn’t), we’ll face that dilemma time and time again. Instead of reacting to urgent causes like violation of human rights, we will argue about the existence of these urgent causes, their legitimacy, who brought them forward, what they might gain from it, etc… but we won’t respond to it, helping those in need. As said, I made my choice regarding this specific intervention - knowing that I’d also prefer a system that would actually work internationally and would abolish the need (and possibility) of unilateral action. But until we have that…
That largely depends on what you mean by “approve” and the actual bombing done. Carpet-bombing Israeli cities to kill as many “Jewish infidels” as possible won’t find my “approval”, especially as in advocating, ever. But an hypothetical Iran without the wish to simply annihilate Israel targetting IDF and other legitimate targets to get them to retreat to their international borders, I could “approve”, as in I understand why they did it - same as I understand why NATO bombed Yugoslavia.
The countries on that graph, by virtue of being on that graph, are not normal countries. That precisely was my point.
Possibly, but right now, one of the two countries you brought up talks about destruction, and the other is currently, as we speak, bombing desalination plants. If the possibilities were different, maybe the aspirations would be as well.
And that’s the thing: What if I don’t? The inherent problem remains: if the kind of consensus you assume were real, it would just be law.
That much is, at least, clear, the way things worked so far is pretty much over. Unless you’re Mark Carney, apparently.
From what I’ve seen these “other people” go through with in just the last week or two, I’m not exactly heartened.
Fully agree. But punishing law-breaking by breaking the law is just the Dirty Harry thing again.
…Yes?
Reasonable. Now, suppose they don’t have that kind of muscle, and instead all they can do is, IDK, try and muster a bunch of regional, allied or loosely affiliated militias to maybe try and enforce a half-blockade of shipping through the Red Sea, or maybe attack a few army outposts on the opposite end of the country…
Of course they are not normal countries - but vastly privileged ones. Exactly the point I’m trying to convey. Why would we talk about “normal” countries here, when the veto is exclusively available to these few? And - that’s the point of the graph and the linked list - these few privileged countries made ample use of their veto power. Even for trivia such as admitting country xyz to the UN - a question neither of them would go to war for with each other. Have we settled this point?
That is again severely downplaying the actions of Iran. Iran has actively funded, equipped, supported… terrorist groups that spread terror, death and destruction over Israel for decades. Given the situation Iran is in, they are putting a lot of effort into the cause of fighting Israel as a country, with the clear stated goal to do so to destroy it. I really don’t get why you wouldn’t acknowledge that, as it doesn’t take anything away from Israel being wrong for their own actions. You literally don’t lose anything, you still can criticise Israel for everything they’re responsible of.
You wouldn’t agree that there were violations of basic human rights occurring there? Are you really sure?
It already is law. Just the body destined to enforce it has been stripped of the full authority to do so. We gave ourselves a police but allowed the biggest land owners to prohibit them access to their property whenever they feel like it and irrespective of what violations of these laws they do.
There’s a very strong difference in going through with dropping bombs targetted to buildings of an enemy army, knowing the destruction will be limited to a couple of hundred metres at worst, and going through with launching weapons that will inevitably not only end the enemy but also you and your family, the entire world. Don’t you think?
Just watching the law-breaking idly is also just Dirty Harry. Only that you chose to accept your fate of being object to the lawlessness of the others. Why would a country do that?
Well, you said ““Jain”. It’s an announcement, it could be a bluff, might not.” to me raising the point that the veto powers used their vetos for tactical political power play rather than solely serious matters they’d actually be ready to go to war over. To which I reply that an announcement must be treated as a veto, hence it only works if the other side musn’t see it as a bluff. Otherwise, the point of the announcement vanishes.
…except they did that - using allied militias/terrorist groups under their guidance and equipment - for decades already, while Israel decided it would be a smart move to bomb the whole country - to achieve what? - last week. Normally, a reaction comes after the action. And that’s exactly my problem in that entire conflict. People love to paint a conflict black and white that is filled to the brim with a plethora of entangled shades.
Because the original remark was “explicit protection of one of the big veto powers, be it Iran and Russia or Israel and the US”, and my whole point is one of those countries is normal, two aren’t, and the last one should be normal, but very much is not. So when you put the four in a sentence, it sounds reasonable to assume everyone can call on a veto whenever, when, in fact, the odd one out is the only one that’s not an outlier.
This is a digression, but: this is not trivia. Accession control is vote control. Also, a legitimacy claim. I can only imagine China’s reaction to Taiwan getting back in.
Because I don’t think you’re being even-handed, so I’m trying to knock you out of the talking points and put you into the other side’s shoes. For example…
…the ‘action’ only happened last week, but the hypothetical wasn’t about self-defense, it was about illegal intervention in prevention of gross human rights violations. Those didn’t begin last week, did they? Or, in fact, was Iran really only attacked last week?
Oh, there were. I was replying to the whole block with the question.
…Well, the police shouldn’t be able to just access your property, not without a warrant. That some fatcats are warrant-proof is true, though.
IDK, they’re already making excuses, what’s one more? In fact, we already have one: Jesus is coming back, you won’t die, you’ll be raptured! Like, this isn’t just bad governance, these people act like a fucking apocalypse cult.
Well, more like the Uvalde cops, I guess. Or those cops in that town run by scientologists.
Ah. Yes, exactly, I agree.
Frankly, none of these countries is normal at all. It is a bit concerning that you apparently think otherwise.
Not everyone, but two of these CAN call a veto whenever, to the benefit of whoever… Why should we pretend it isn’t so? Again, while you’re apparently very much focussed on who actually used the veto when, I am not. I am criticising the fact that the mere possibility exists.
Yea… pretty hard to establish an international institution to handle international relation between countries if you end up using your vetos for countries you don’t even have any direct dispute with just to mess with your opponent. Political power play, no reason to actually go to war over.
Was Iran attacked by Israel before they started to fund and steer all of their terror pawns in Arab countries several decades ago? Before they announced their objective to eliminate Israel?
…and these fatcats can extend their shield against any warrant to anyone. That is a problem.
Talk is cheap. Actually pushing the button that will end the wold isn’t.