Why is there no privacy respecting solution for age verification? Like the government giving you some sort of token that says you’re over 18 and that’s it?
It also does a fairly good job at preventing stuff from getting through.
One of the big issues right now is that there’s a lot of sexualized content on social media right now that’s bypassing parental controls because the social media services are doing a poor job of limiting that content when encountering a parental controlled device.
The scheme from the Danish government, shared in another comment, avoids the sharing by allowing token to be used only once, and, because the government issues the tokens, it can block people from getting tokens if they detect abuse. This can be done by rate-limiting, geoblocking and all sorts of techniques.
Remember that the function of the anonymous token is to not allow the service provider (like an OS, or a a website) to see your identity. This still allows the government to see which service provider you are using.
Hopefully the service provider can form pools yo block the government from knowing each individual website, but that’s not a given.
So there should be a rebuttal demanding a privacy respecting age verification token, instead of just arguing against age verification, which technically does have a point. This way it’s disabled as excuse to sneak in the other things.
No, we still need to be against it. I said tracking and controlling, not just tracking.
They are already blocking resources that shouldn’t be blocked from youth, and even a privacy centric method would still let them do that, and then expand it to anything at a whim in the future.
We don’t want the internet built on this infrastructure, it would br a disaster.
Okay, it’s 2 topics then, the privacy, and basically adding a mandatory authorization layer to the internet derived from your real identity.
To some extent this already exists for movies or say to buy alcohol, getting a driving license etc. in the real world, where people often also have to verify their age. So here it could be asked on what exact basis the internet should work differently.
Neither alcohol or the car verifies your age when you use it.
A minor can’t really sign up for an Internet subscription, so who gave them access?
Mandate age requirements when buying digital units would be better, but then we’re back to the “I have no control over my children and can’t set boundaries”
The basis is its how the world communicates and they become the gate keepers to communication and knowledge. Its like book banning on topics they don’t like but on a scale much more massive.
They’re already banning internet content from people that shouldn’t be about sexual health because its not about protecting kids its about controlling them and people.
You gotta be a good sheep and they’re going to do their best to make you one.
Not saying that these are not possibilities, but the technology itself and mistrust of government are, at least partly, different things. This is definitely a complex topic, spanning a lot of topics.
the technology itself and mistrust of government are, at least partly, different things
I don’t personally think so when it comes to technologies like this that can be used to surveil and/or control a population (edit: and especially that are being heavily driven by governments)
It’s pretty much a given that it will be used against us as history has shown us its always the case.
Trying to separate them out, gives them the extra support they need to pass it through and then abuse it.
What if I told you that by regulation, the EU age verification system has to be anonymous and that it’s only the AUKUS countries that are moving forward in a way where anonymity is “a nice to have”.
Denmark’s system, which is a front-runner implementation in the EU, is going to be fully ZKP.
And yes it’s basically built with tokens.
You identify with a government system in an app. The services issues you signed tokens that are anonymous. You hand these anonymous tokens over to the sites that demand proof of age.
That sounds great. I don’t follow the topic closely (probably I should), so wasn’t aware of these developments. This should be brought up in all discussions about age verification, so everyone knows there are better options.
Some people will feel that it’s not ideal, as you still have to trust the government, opposed to full anonymity, but that is a bit of a separate problem.
Ultimately someone has to vouch for “yes, this person is 18+”. People can’t self-attest, except through crappy biometric, so at some point a government ID has to be involved.
I’d trust my government over a credit reference agency that literally makes revenue from selling access to your private data.
Yes, and governments, at least democratic ones, represent the interests of their people, so at least on paper this is the correct way to structure things. Then you use the channels to government to ensure it’s regulated properly. If this is not possible or there’s no trust, there’s a larger problem.
Why is there no privacy respecting solution for age verification? Like the government giving you some sort of token that says you’re over 18 and that’s it?
There is.
It’s called Parental Controls.
It also does a fairly good job at preventing stuff from getting through.
One of the big issues right now is that there’s a lot of sexualized content on social media right now that’s bypassing parental controls because the social media services are doing a poor job of limiting that content when encountering a parental controlled device.
Because then you can share the token and everyone can use it
I’m sure a more robust solution is possible though.
The scheme from the Danish government, shared in another comment, avoids the sharing by allowing token to be used only once, and, because the government issues the tokens, it can block people from getting tokens if they detect abuse. This can be done by rate-limiting, geoblocking and all sorts of techniques.
Remember that the function of the anonymous token is to not allow the service provider (like an OS, or a a website) to see your identity. This still allows the government to see which service provider you are using.
Hopefully the service provider can form pools yo block the government from knowing each individual website, but that’s not a given.
Because its not about age verification, its about tracking and controlling you and making a privacy respecting solution isn’t compatible with that.
So there should be a rebuttal demanding a privacy respecting age verification token, instead of just arguing against age verification, which technically does have a point. This way it’s disabled as excuse to sneak in the other things.
No, we still need to be against it. I said tracking and controlling, not just tracking.
They are already blocking resources that shouldn’t be blocked from youth, and even a privacy centric method would still let them do that, and then expand it to anything at a whim in the future.
We don’t want the internet built on this infrastructure, it would br a disaster.
Okay, it’s 2 topics then, the privacy, and basically adding a mandatory authorization layer to the internet derived from your real identity.
To some extent this already exists for movies or say to buy alcohol, getting a driving license etc. in the real world, where people often also have to verify their age. So here it could be asked on what exact basis the internet should work differently.
Neither alcohol or the car verifies your age when you use it.
A minor can’t really sign up for an Internet subscription, so who gave them access?
Mandate age requirements when buying digital units would be better, but then we’re back to the “I have no control over my children and can’t set boundaries”
The basis is its how the world communicates and they become the gate keepers to communication and knowledge. Its like book banning on topics they don’t like but on a scale much more massive.
They’re already banning internet content from people that shouldn’t be about sexual health because its not about protecting kids its about controlling them and people.
You gotta be a good sheep and they’re going to do their best to make you one.
Not saying that these are not possibilities, but the technology itself and mistrust of government are, at least partly, different things. This is definitely a complex topic, spanning a lot of topics.
I don’t personally think so when it comes to technologies like this that can be used to surveil and/or control a population (edit: and especially that are being heavily driven by governments)
It’s pretty much a given that it will be used against us as history has shown us its always the case.
Trying to separate them out, gives them the extra support they need to pass it through and then abuse it.
What if I told you that by regulation, the EU age verification system has to be anonymous and that it’s only the AUKUS countries that are moving forward in a way where anonymity is “a nice to have”.
Denmark’s system, which is a front-runner implementation in the EU, is going to be fully ZKP.
And yes it’s basically built with tokens.
You identify with a government system in an app. The services issues you signed tokens that are anonymous. You hand these anonymous tokens over to the sites that demand proof of age.
That sounds great. I don’t follow the topic closely (probably I should), so wasn’t aware of these developments. This should be brought up in all discussions about age verification, so everyone knows there are better options.
Some people will feel that it’s not ideal, as you still have to trust the government, opposed to full anonymity, but that is a bit of a separate problem.
Ultimately someone has to vouch for “yes, this person is 18+”. People can’t self-attest, except through crappy biometric, so at some point a government ID has to be involved.
I’d trust my government over a credit reference agency that literally makes revenue from selling access to your private data.
Yes, and governments, at least democratic ones, represent the interests of their people, so at least on paper this is the correct way to structure things. Then you use the channels to government to ensure it’s regulated properly. If this is not possible or there’s no trust, there’s a larger problem.
Except in practice the Snowden leaks show us that democratic governments don’t always have our best interests at heart when it comes to this domain